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#OO3 Why The Construction Industry Should Look For Leaders Outside The Industry

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Why The Construction Industry Should Look For Leaders Outsite The Industry

{These transcripts have been auto-generated, while largely accurate, they may contain some errors.}

Jordan Skinner (00:14):
Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Crushing It In Construction podcast. I’m your host Jordan Skinner. In this episode, I’m speaking to Damian Ennis. Damian is the managing director of Concise Infrastructure. And today, he’s talking to me about why he feels the construction industry could really benefit from hiring leaders outside of our industry. He also talks about what that may look like and why he thinks the overall it would be a really great thing for the industry. I think you’re going to really enjoy this episode. Damian is a really smart guy. He has lots of experience within the industry as well and has really great, valuable insights to share. So let’s get into the show. G’day. Damian, how are you? Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Damian Ennis (00:54):
Thanks, Jordan. How are you keeping?

Jordan Skinner (00:56):
Yeah, not bad. Thanks. So for those who are listening that don’t know you, I know you’ve been in the industry for a long time now, but could you just give us a quick 60 to 90 seconds rundown on who you are, what it is you do and how you got into the industry?

Damian Ennis (01:10):
Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve always been in the construction industry in one format or the other. I worked on construction sites as a kid, like my dad and uncles and things like that were always involved in construction. I studied architecture and practiced for a couple of years in Ireland and then came across to Australia and then practiced here for about five years. It was just at the point where I wanted to try something new. So I put my hand up to get involved with a tender for a multi-billion dollar project, which became North Connects in Sydney. I enjoyed that a lot.

Damian Ennis (01:43):
So over the next couple of years, I worked in Perth and then came back to Sydney and then just worked back to back on major projects, both tendering and delivering, and did that for the next six years. Then at the end of that, decided to go work for myself just so I had the freedom to pick whichever projects I wanted and pick the roles that I wanted. So it just gave me that freedom. That’s how I’ve ended up where I am.

Jordan Skinner (02:04):
So is it correct? I think I’ve seen it on LinkedIn, and I think I heard you speak about it on another podcast as well, but you’ve been involved with over a billion dollars worth of tendering. Is that correct?

Damian Ennis (02:13):
I’ve been involved in $44 billion worth of tenders.

Jordan Skinner (02:17):
Wow. That’s pretty impressive. Do you find people are taken back, when they find that out or it comes up in conversation?

Damian Ennis (02:23):
I guess, it’s unusual for someone to have that much mega project experience. And within the people who have done that, it’s unusual for someone to be this young, to be honest. So, because I’ve stayed doing quite a lot of tenders back to back, that number gets pretty high pretty quickly because each one of them is several billion dollars each. But I’ve also worked on the delivery side as well. I have carried through into the delivery side to experience that as well, so that you’re selling your tenders up for success.

Jordan Skinner (02:51):
Yeah. So I know that’s the professional side of things out of the way, and the business is always very serious, but I like to take things down a bit more of a personal route. So could you tell us something that’s… Well, me and the audience, something that’s interesting and unique about yourself, just so we can get to know you a little bit better?

Damian Ennis (03:07):
Yeah. I think probably it’s a personality trait. I think I’ve always enjoyed taking on new challenges. When I was younger, we didn’t have a youth club in the town I grew up. So I set it up with a couple of mates. Set it up, got it insured, did the whole thing. We were 13 at the time. There was no student union in our school, so we set that up, and that carries right through to now. 10 years ago, I wasn’t particularly adept at public speaking. I wasn’t very natural in it. So I went off and did some open-mic comedy.

Jordan Skinner (03:38):

Damian Ennis (03:39):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We often sit down and ask a simple question, “If I want to get really good at this really quickly, what’s the stupidest thing I could do?” Open-mic comedy was definitely that for public speaking. So the same goes for moving from architecture into construction. A lot of those types of things are things that other people just don’t seem to want to do or don’t make that leap, which is it’s always been for me, so.

Jordan Skinner (04:00):
Definitely think a sense of humor always comes in handy in this industry. You’ve got to laugh or you’ll cry sometimes, but-

Damian Ennis (04:07):
Yeah. It’s a fair comment.

Jordan Skinner (04:08):
A couple of weeks ago, you and I were having a conversation. We were chewing the fat for a good couple of hours, I think, and one thing that you brought up that really stuck in my head was that you think that we should be getting more leaders within construction from other industries and not focusing so heavily on promoting within this industry to try and get some different ideas. Why exactly do you think that is?

Damian Ennis (04:30):
I think we need a fresh approach. I think construction generally and infrastructure, certainly, we need to do things differently to how we’ve done them previously. Not just for the sake of doing it differently, but actually taking the things that people comment about in the press or the little project that will say, “We hire this percentage of people from female or an Aboriginal background, or we’ll allow our staff to work part-time, or we’ll use modular construction on this site.”

Damian Ennis (04:57):
They’re great initiatives, but they’re exactly that, they’re initiatives. They’re really baked into the core of the business. So my comment would be, if in 10 years time we’re still releasing press releases because a specific project has done a trial of something that’s been proven in other industries, then I think we need to sit down and have a serious look at it, because modular has been proven in every other industry. It shouldn’t be a press release level of news that it’s been used on a project. But it is, we are in that position where it is an unusual thing for someone to do.

Damian Ennis (05:32):
I think generally it’s not just construction. It’s theories that support construction. I had a friend who built a Passive House on the way to Wollongong recently, and his mortgage was tougher because it was a different type of construction. He had to justify over and over to the people getting his mortgage as to why this different type of house doesn’t carry more risk, when ironically, it’s cheaper to run. So it should make his mortgage less risky. But just that little difference, anything, it gets people offside.

Damian Ennis (06:01):
So I think the most natural thing to do is to hire real genuine leaders from other industries and bring them in and just take a fresh approach. I think the last report I saw from McKinley was construction is the second worst adopter of technology. I think agriculture is the worst, which, to be fair, it’s limited in what they could do. And you’re thinking that that just shouldn’t be the case.

Jordan Skinner (06:25):
Do you think that comes down to potentially being something to do with the age demographic of the people that are in the positions of power within this industry?

Damian Ennis (06:34):
Yeah, absolutely. If you look at industries like tech. You look at the idea that you can’t run a billion dollar business in your 30s. I do understand where that approach comes from. But Canva, and obviously, LinkedIn, Facebook, all these kind of platforms, these are multi-billion dollar companies being run by people, in some cases in their 20s or 30s. Construction has a mindset that you have to come from within the industry, and even within that industry, you have to come from a very specific silo. You have to come from boots on the ground at some point.

Damian Ennis (07:06):
I agree, that if you’re going to be promoted from within a company, it makes sense that you have had some experience on sites . I don’t disagree with that point. But the same thing doesn’t go for, “Have you had a stint managing? Have you had a stint working and planning and approvals?” It’s considered default that you have to have boots on the ground experience, and that makes sense to me, but everything else is considered optional. When you look at these big projects, the areas they’re having problems with, it is approvals. It is getting designed ready in time. It is change management and controlling changes that are made along the way where maybe a client asks or something, and then doesn’t realize the cost impact until much later. So the areas that we do really well are in the construction, which means all the opportunities sit elsewhere.

Jordan Skinner (07:49):
Yeah. So have you seen any examples of where this has worked really well, either within our industry? Have you seen that happen somewhere or have you got any examples of maybe industries that have taken on leaders from outside places before?

Damian Ennis (08:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I can certainly think of people within construction that have moved between companies and taken on slightly different roles. But I mean, in terms of what we’re talking about, in terms of people coming from a different industry entirely, I remember reading a leadership book by Lou Gertsner, and he worked for a number of year, I think, at American Express, and then they brought him, and he did quite well there. But they brought him into IBM, at a time when IBM was a big name in the industry. But in terms of dollars and performance, it was actually struggling fairly significantly. The CEO that was in charge at the time had already put a plan in place where they were going to split up all the divisions, and each division would compete within its own areas. So the hardware, and software, and business support would all break into separate companies and they would compete with other companies.

Damian Ennis (08:48):
Everyone in the company agreed. Everyone who’d been at the company agreed. And anyone that had been asked was probably behind the idea, but obviously the results weren’t getting where they needed to. So the board at the time got rid of the CEO. They brought in this new Lou Gertsner, and the first thing he did was stop them splitting up the company, and his take on it was that IBM was a very large company. But that was its unique selling point. Its unique selling point was, it had within its business core all the different arms that businesses would want, and that often businesses get one service provider from company X, another from Y, and it’s getting those two to talk to each other is really where the challenges are.

Damian Ennis (09:28):
That was his experience in American Express. And he thought, IBM’s unique offering was that if they kept it all in house, if they were all working as one company, then it becomes a one-stop shop that you can go to. You can go to it to get all this stuff and knowing that it will interact with each other seamlessly. So I know he has a book, I think, which is called You Can’t Make Elephants Dance, I think is something like that. But it was based on this idea, they wanted to split it up so it would just become seven or eight companies competing within their own industries. When he said, “Well, then you’re just competing with every other company. You’re no longer IBM. You’re just handful of small companies competing with other companies in their own industry.”

Jordan Skinner (10:02):
And it’s funny how they need somebody from outside with a fresh perspective to actually…. On the surface of it doesn’t sound that outlandish. It Doesn’t.

Damian Ennis (10:12):
100%. Like any good idea, it seems perfectly clear in hindsight. But like you said, there didn’t seem to be any suggestion in any papers I’ve read on it, that there was any dissent internally at the idea of splitting it up. It was everybody was on board because they all worked for the same company. They saw that there was issues, challenges, and some senior management were of the opinion it needs to be split up. So it’s very hard in that scenario for someone to be a dissenting voice. Whereas if you’re brought in from the top down, you have the support of the board, for a period of time, at least, to come in and try something, and he came in. He made very few personnel changes. I remember him talking about they had good people there, they just needed a new direction and that was the way they wanted to go, and he turned IBM around. I mean, he was there for a number of years. Yeah, I’m sure the shareholders were very, very happy with him.

Jordan Skinner (11:00):
So why do you think that it is that it seems like in most other industries bringing people in from other walks of life seems pretty normal. Why do you think us as the construction industry is struggling with this so much?

Damian Ennis (11:13):
Still, I think it’s a very alpha culture. I think the culture that historically have been outside have suffered from it, whether you talk about lawyers, or finance, or banking specifically. Any industries like that could have ended up either in the royal commission or have a tendency for the projects to tend to go over significantly. I think it’s based on this old idea of the leader, is the person who comes up with all the ideas and then they execute them without any doubt, and it’s very decisive, and it’s that type of leadership.

Damian Ennis (11:45):
When in reality, the best leaders that I’ve ever worked with or have read about will be the first people to say that, some of those best ideas they didn’t come up with that they recognized that they were good ideas when they came up. But they trusted the people that were involved to back themselves, to take the idea through. They were really there to higher up just to make sure all the individual processes, and projects weren’t going to contradict each other. They don’t pretend to be the person with all the answers. They don’t pretend to be this complete one-stop shop for good ideas.

Damian Ennis (12:16):
I think construction, it’s well documented. Construction, whether it’s suicide rates or people leaving the industry, it’s an industry that promotes the idea of what an old leader is in most other industries. I think that’s where they really struggled. I think, you know I’ve talked in the past about someone like Alison Mirams, who was a GM at Lend Lease, and went across to what was then Roberts Pizzarotti, but it’s now called Roberts Co. And just the idea of going out to the people who are studying diversity and studying what the issues were in the construction industry and asking them what the challenges were and what the solutions were. That’s where they came up with the five-day work week, because all the initiatives in the world aren’t going to get you across the line, if the fundamental problem, like the problem they had, was a six-day work week isn’t going to work with, if you’re the primary care, and in most cases, women are.

Damian Ennis (13:09):
So if she just sat back and decided, “I’m going to set targets, and I’m going to hold my people to account.” That doesn’t solve the underlying problem. Alison’s been very, very clear that she went out and talked to people and talk to researchers. She knew what problem she wanted to solve, but she wasn’t going to be able to look at all the other solutions herself.

Jordan Skinner (13:28):
Yeah. I’ve only recently learned about Alison Mirams, but it does sound pretty impressive what she’s doing and what she’s putting together. Why wouldn’t you, if you can get the same result in half the amount of time. I mean, there’s not one business that I know of that wouldn’t want that result.

Damian Ennis (13:40):

Jordan Skinner (13:41):
Because it means you can move on to the next one, but there still seems to be this old guard. Do you want to call it? Would you call it the old guard that don’t want to accept this new way of working or potential new way of working once it’s proven?

Damian Ennis (13:52):
Yeah. I agree 100%. I was at a Roads Australia lunch a couple of years ago, and Alison was giving a talk about diversity and quotas and where their place was and initiatives that worked, and I remember there was a couple of questions that came from the room and they were clearly steered towards, “That’s all well and good, and I see you’ve made it work in building, and good for you, but it’ll never work in infrastructure. Infrastructure’s is a different beast.” I liked that Alison got the microphone and said, “12 months ago, I was in a similar room being told by building people I couldn’t do it in that industry either. So it is what it is.” She’s not wrong. She’s not wrong, that that type of approach doesn’t work for women, because it means they leave the industry, and it doesn’t work for men, because an already unforgivable high rate of male suicide in Australia is significantly higher in the construction industry. So one thing we know for certain is the current approach doesn’t work.

Jordan Skinner (14:50):
Yeah, exactly. So you don’t need any more of an indicator than that, really, do you?

Damian Ennis (14:53):
100%. It’s ironic that if you built a bridge and it fell over, there’s nothing you can say to say, “We didn’t intend for it not to fall over. We did our best, and we worked really hard on it.” The ultimate solution is, did the thing do what it’s supposed to do? So if the industry is losing people either to other industries, or just leaving work all together, or through suicide, then it’s clearly not working. The current approach of how you promote people and the type of people you approach, and also, I mean, the fundamental issue that sits in the industry right across the board is the lack of trust. Clearly a very, very alpha approach doesn’t help that. Clients don’t trust contractors. Contractors don’t trust clients. Consultants don’t trust contractors. If you can’t get in a room and trust the person across the table, you’re probably not going to solve the problem.

Jordan Skinner (15:43):
If you look at any relationship that you have within my life, your life, whatever, there’s always an element of trust.

Damian Ennis (15:49):

Jordan Skinner (15:50):
When there’s billions of dollars on the table, I don’t know what makes anybody think that if there’s no trust that it’s still going to work out okay. But everybody seems to think that just having all this litigious paperwork between them seems to be an excuse for not having a solid relationship built on trust.

Damian Ennis (16:07):
That’s a classic example. Again, to go back to Roberts Co. I know Roberts Co, for example, how have a contract structure where there’s a statement of intent between the client, the contractor, and the subcontractors. And it sits above the contract, which says, they will work proactively with each other to solve the problem, before they go down a commercial route. So, first and foremost, if there’s a problem you have to demonstrate that you’ve tried to solve the problem. So it’s almost like reverse arbitration. We have to do it first, before you can get to the contract.

Jordan Skinner (16:37):

Damian Ennis (16:37):
She said that it has meant in the past that they’ve put that in front of potential clients built for, and they’ve said, “We can’t sign that type of contract structure.” Even though the conversation to that point has been, “Of course, we work collaboratively. Of course, we work with you. Of course, we do everything we can.” And then when you put a contract in front of them that says, “Commercially speaking, you have to back that up.” They’ve backed away from it, and she said, they’ve not worked with people on the basis of not willing to sign that contract. She’s also said that when they’ve signed contracts in the past, they’ve gone to their lawyers and said, “You have something like 25 pages to create a contract, and if it’s anything longer than that, we don’t need it. You shouldn’t need more than 25 pages to say, ‘We’re going to work together to solve a problem.’ Here’s all the standards we’re going to apply.” It can’t just be a list of times you’ve got burned before and how you’re not going to get burned this time, because that list is never going to be exhausted.

Jordan Skinner (17:27):
I think you’ve basically answered this question anyway, in what we were just talking about. But what are some of the consequences that you are seeing as a result of not getting those fresh perspectives from outside of the industry?

Damian Ennis (17:37):
I think basically it’s if you keep hiring the same profile of person, you’re going to keep getting the same results, and it’s entirely possible, at some point that clients, be that public or government, at some point, they’re going to decide projects that run 50%, or 100%, or more over budget is not necessarily the way to go. I mean, you look in the UK where the impact of Crossrail going significantly over budget and years behind in schedule has meant it’s been harder for them to get HS2, which is high speed rail up the spine of the country. It’s been harder to get that across the line. It’s been harder to get the business case approved. It’s been harder to get the public support behind it, because this is a $50 billion project and people are saying, “Maybe for 50 billion, it’s worth it, but if we apply the logic of, it’s going to be twice of a budget, is it still as good a project of 100?”

Damian Ennis (18:28):
Again, that comes back to trust. It means, if you keep hiring the same approach from within the industry, you will get the same outcomes. It’s telling that the story of Roberts Co, and how they got put together, they were a new company. It wasn’t a question of a company that one day hired a new leader like IBM, and that person turned them around. That was a new company from the ground up. So when they hired Alison and she said, “This is how I want to run my company.” They bought into that from day one, and it’s not just the philosophy behind it. She had to build a business case, and the business case for her was, “We’re going to get cheaper. If we can deliver these projects on a five-day work week, and because people are stressed, the project does get delivered on time, does get delivered on budget. Our insurance premiums are going to go down. We’re going to be picking from staff that nobody else can pick.”

Damian Ennis (19:18):
They talk about hiring not just women who want to stay in the workforce. I know they’ve got a couple people working who play sports semi-professionally, and they can commit to being available on a Saturday, to play for a second grade league team or something, because they know that they’re not going to get dragged into work on a Saturday. It’s like the rest of the industry’s taken from half a deck, and she’s got the full 52 cards available to her, and it’s just working for them.

Jordan Skinner (19:40):
That scenario is proof that people want to work for a good company-

Damian Ennis (19:44):

Jordan Skinner (19:44):
… and a company that looks after the people that are working for them. The old approach of ruling with an iron fist. You’ve got that approach or you’ve got Alison Mirams’ approach. From everything that she’s saying, and that you are saying, it sounds like it’s helping the employee retention and acquisition and all that sort of stuff. So the flow on effects sound good.

Damian Ennis (20:05):
I know she said as well, in the past, when she’s hired people who’ve been told all throughout the interview process, “This is how we’re going to work. This is how we’re going to do things.” And they nod their head and move. That’s everything’s agreed. Then they bring them on board, and as soon as things start getting tight or… Programs start to slip, they fall back into their own ways, and she said, she’s had to let people go. She’s got into them and said, “Okay, this is like an informal first warning of, we don’t want to put that kind of pressure on our subbies, because we don’t think we get the best work out of them if we do that.” People who are repeat offenders will then be asked to leave the business.

Jordan Skinner (20:43):
If somebody’s listening to this and they think, “This is a great idea. We do need to be looking outside the industry more.” What do you think some of the first steps are that they can take to start putting something like this into action?

Damian Ennis (20:54):
Like we said, I think they need to hire people who have a different approach. I think they need to rely on a lot of this stuff. I mean, it isn’t a philosophical view. It’s backed up by data. Obviously, in a hopefully post-COVID world, people are talking about office, which is a five-day working week going to a four-day working week and some of these types of things, and this research has been sitting out there for years. It’s taken a big shock to the system for people to actually start seriously looking at it and flexible working and you trust your workforce. It’s the old cartoon strip of the CFO saying, “Well, what if we train up all these people and then they just leave?” And the CEO says, “What if you don’t and they stay?”

Damian Ennis (21:38):
You need those people who are taking completely different approach. I think that it’s very easy when you’re having these kinds of conversations with them to be seen as quite negative. The reality for me is, define the problem and you’re halfway to fixing it. This is an industry that is ripe for opportunity. There’s incredible people in the industry. They’re natural born problem solvers. It’s an industry full of really, really, really good people, that if you had that leader at the top that backed up and they had the… What’s the term? Psychological safety that you know, you can take risks because you’ll be backed for having taken that chance. I think it’s an industry that is sitting there waiting for it’s long overdue revolution. Let’s put it in one term.

Jordan Skinner (22:26):
You’d say that one of the primary things that you look for bringing somebody in from the outside is just their ability to solve problems and just think outside the box, basically?

Damian Ennis (22:35):
And trust people. Lou, when he went into IBM, no one’s suggesting he had all the solutions in his head. He came in, there were some good people in there, but they needed a fresh take, stand back and say, “Okay, we haven’t finished splitting these companies up yet. Let’s reassess if this really, really is the best outcome.” What will we end up with? We’ll end up with eight smaller companies, which will have larger overheads than anyone else, because there’ll be a parent company that sits above that all competing in an industry with nothing unique to offer.

Damian Ennis (23:05):
So his take on that was, “Well, if I’m American Express and I want to get IBM in, the great thing about getting IBM in at the moment is, you kind of do everything. And if I buy two products from IBM, I’m guaranteed they’ll work between each other. Whereas if I buy something from one of your competitors and then another system for another one, there’s no guarantee that they will work seamlessly together, and that’s risk for me but if I’m bringing this big expensive system but that’s where it’s going sit.”

Damian Ennis (23:29):
So he said, I think you’ve missed it. Your unique offer is that you’re a one-stop shop. The great thing about construction is that because it’s lagged so far behind, there is lean construction groups out there. There are groups who advocate for modular construction. There are groups that are out there advocating for Passive Houses and all that. All these solutions are sitting there. It just takes someone to sit at the top of a group and be given that support by their board to say, “We’re going to do things differently.” That comes down to as well with your clients. The idea of government jobs being awarded based on a figure that was promised 18 months ago on an election, because it looks like, “Well, we signed the contract at a price that’s agreeable and we’ll deal with the ramifications in five years time.” So it comes back to people holding government to account as well as holding companies to account.

Jordan Skinner (24:19):
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. If there’s one takeaway that you would like people to get from listening to this episode, what do you think that is?

Damian Ennis (24:26):
I, I think, just to reiterate the previous point that, we’ve probably spent 25 minutes talking about the challenges in the industry and that’s how I like to problem solve. I like to put everything on the table, be very clear about where the problems sit, before you start talking about how you’re going to solve them. But I guess, the takeaway then is to spoon from the sugar to go with the medicine. It is a great industry. There’s incredibly gifted people who sit within it, that it is a system that rewards great problem solving skills and people management. It does have a huge potential for change. There’s huge opportunities sitting there, both commercially, for someone who wanted to set up a company and challenge the status quo.

Damian Ennis (25:03):
There are cracks in the glass ceiling. It’s not broken certainly, but there are cracks in there, and echos are there, female representation, but also any kind of diverse representation within the industry. I think the people in the industry are calling out for change. I think the first person to step up and give it to them will be rewarded disproportionately well as with most industries.

Jordan Skinner (25:25):
You look at the hype surrounding Alison Mirams at the minute. Everybody, I speak to mentions her, and she’s doing something different, and because she’s taking a risk. She’s putting a name behind that risk. So she’s not frightened of looking silly if it doesn’t come off, because it’s something that she obviously believes heavily in. Yeah, so let’s just start to round this out. It’s been great talking. But if you could go back to when you first started in the construction industries, what is one piece of advice that you’d give yourself?

Damian Ennis (25:51):
I would say, yeah, trust your instincts. I was an architect sitting in a engineering construction company. There wasn’t too many of me wandering in the place, but I did have an OCD tendency. I did like to organize things. I did like to pre-plan things and have a plan. I’m not locked to the plan, if it needs to change, but it’s nice to have a baseline to start from. So trust your instincts, and certainly with bigger tenders, learn to enjoy the chaos. It is a lot of fun. It does feel like you’re in the trenches at times. There are a lot of fun. You make a lot of really good friends because you see them about 18 hours a day, certain weeks. Yeah, enjoy the chaos. I’ve had no regrets in terms of stepping away from architecture side of construction and into what I’ve done. For the next five plus years, there will be lots of big projects on the drawing board. So yeah, I think I’m going to have a little bit of fun for a little bit longer.

Jordan Skinner (26:43):
Yeah. That’s awesome. Tell everybody how they can connect with you and keep up to date with what you’re doing.

Damian Ennis (26:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I’m reasonably active on LinkedIn, should probably post a little bit more on there. But I certainly reach out to people and people reached out to me, and I had coffees of people based on the same passion to try and change the industry a little a bit across any number of areas. When we talked about Alison Mirams, there’s a lecturer at University of New South Wales called Peter Eslyn. I did a subject with him for an MBA, I’m juggling part-time. The Grattan Institute does a lot of really, really good research, particularly in infrastructure, but also smart cities and electrical vehicles and those types of things. Yeah, there’s a lot of really, really good people out there. There’s a lot of really good, impressive webinars of talented people who are really trying to push the needle on a lot of different areas in construction. So I try to whatever little support that can lend them, whether it’s just a like or repost, that’s something I like to get involved in.

Jordan Skinner (27:41):
We’ll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes as well. I don’t want people to bombard you, but if you add Damian on LinkedIn, he’ll either accept or he won’t.

Damian Ennis (27:51):
Yeah. I’ll certainly accept. If they shoot a message. It might take a week or so. I’ll certainly get back to them.

Jordan Skinner (27:58):
That’s it. All right, Damian, well, thanks very much for your time. It’s been great chatting with you. I’m sure we’ve solved a few problems here today. You always try and solve problems when you’re picking an industry to pieces, but it’s been good fun, and I’ve really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming on the show.

Damian Ennis (28:10):
No, mate. Thanks for the invite. I really enjoyed it.